Punctuating Poetry! Group think??

[jfrost]

Hi everyone,

Would anyone care to post their thoughts/ideas/usual way of going about punctuating their work?




Was it your post, Tracy where you said that editors don't like commas at the end of lines, as they read the line as a stop and find it clutters up the page? Hmmm.
I'm always dithering on punctuation. Perhaps we need a group workshop on how to punctuate a poem...
What I mean is...everyone just write a post on what they use when punctuating a poem--i.e. what they consider or use.
??

Judith

[Brekke]

I don't do it at all.  Seems to work

[jfrost]

so concise Brekke I will have to take another look at your work and see how that works out in actual fact Thanks for your wise words wise lady blessings Judith

[AnnaB]

Personally I dither. Whither I dither is a whole 'nother matter! Some poems I choose deliberately to go sparse on punctuation, and others I choose to punctuate. Likewise, sometimes I go capitals on each line, sometimes I go capitals on the first letter of the sentence. Depends on feel. With punctuation I still think I need help. (If what I am typing makes no sense, know that I am typing and answering s million preschooler questions at the same time: Mummy why you typing? Why you answering a question?) I also need help with line breaks...

[jfrost]

Hi Anna,

You were making pretty good sense for carrying on a conversation with your preschooler at the same time!
I, too tend to sometimes use it and sometimes leave it out. Sometimes it seems as if it will not be understandable if there is no comma--but I remember reading recently that editors don't like commas at the end of lines.
I think I go by feel and look as well and  sometimes will take everything out, then put it all back in!
Sigh. Is punctuation something that should just be consistant- no matter how you choose to do it?
Or is this something that changes with fashion?
I'm enjoying reading everyone's thoughts on this.
Judith

[AnnaB]

I'm in favour of it changing based on the individual poem.
Just as I try to do some free verse, a villanelle there, a sonnet here, dialect here, standard English, ye olde time-speak, one continuous poem, tercets, short lines, long lines... some punctuated, some not.
I'm in favour of trying a whole lot of different stuff, even if just for the sake of broadening horizons.
If you mean as a general rule, then I don't know....if a poet's style should be marked by punctuation or lack thereof, I dunno.   
Anyone else wanna weigh in?

[Violet]

I favor going by individual poem and the feel of it too. The poems that are more traditional and formal I tend to use conventional punctuation more.

There's nothing wrong with trying it both ways, Judith. Type your poem up one version with commas and another without and then come back to it in a few days and see how the two versions work for you.

I punctuate, too, by how much of a pause I want to signify. A line break is already a pause. In most poems, I think it has the same effect as a comma. But if the lack of a comma causes confusion (for example, if you're writing a series or list and the last word in one line, followed by the first word in the next is confusing with no comma, then put one in).

Another thing I ask myself is what does my use of punctuation or lack of it say about my respect for my reader. Sometimes I feel like when I add too much punctuation, I'm saying to my reader - 'you probably won't get this unless I direct you where to pause etc.' Generally, poetry readers are pretty astute and get it just fine without that kind of micro-management - so why insult their intelligence by putting it in when it's not necessary.

One thing, though. Make a decision one way or another and be consistent within that particular poem. Nothing bugs me more than a poet setting a precedent by doing it one way, then midstream and for no apparent reason changing (e.g. no periods even though there are obvious sentence breaks - and then a period at the end).

[Tracy Lee]

I agree that generally the poem itself, its tone and style, should dictate how punctuation is used. There are also poets (like Susan) who write mostly or always in a style which demands no punctuation, and that seems to become part of their "voice," the thing that makes them recognizable even before you see their name on the poem.

Violet said it perfectly, about when and when not to use a comma at the end of a line, if you are using commas at all. Actually, I say "ditto" to everything she said.

At this point in the history of poetics, there are no rules, and some poets are pushing the limits of conventions, experimenting with how far away from conventional style (principles generally acknowledged as "right", for example in Strunk's "Elements of Style") they can go and still be understood.

I think the best way to come to a better understanding of how punctuation works in poetry, and when/where we might choose to use it, is to read a lot of contemporary poetry.

As for the line, and when to break it... That's a huge discussion. I'm currently reading a series of essays from well-known poets, each one speaking his/her mind about the "line." But for a generalization, we could compare a poem to a musical score and a line to a measure of music. The rhythm and sound of each line should have its own integrity, (it should hold its own in relationship to the other lines), and it should compliment the other lines.

Some people prefer poetry in which each line also has its own integrity of "sense," which can be ambiguous, changing when it comes into relationship with the previous or the following line.

Although there are no "rules" I've been told a few things so often that the accumulation of this repetition has made these into my personal rules, which I sometimes break anyway:
never break a line after an article (a, an, the);
seldom break one after a pronoun;
try to end a line with a vivid, concrete word.

[JamesB]

Thank each of you for your contributions.  I did learn a great deal from each, well, not only learned but many things verified.

Here are a few things I gleaned at a Writers Conference in Amarillo Texas two years ago.

The keynote speaker said to never misspell words to define the person or situation, but rather to use the language itself.  That caused me to shudder as I had submitted a poem in the "Black mans dialect" with purposfully misspelled words.  The judge of the poetry was a former Oklahoma Poet Laurete and she was marvelous.  She loved the Black mans vermacular and the poem.  I reminded her what the speaker had said and she responded that I had been consistent throughout and that was sufficient with her.  (This being one of the things Violet pointed out)

Here is one disconcerting aspect of poetry that causes me chagrin.  Many have pet peeves in the realm of poetry and they carry some clout in this realm.  Their articles speak of their personal choice as if it was original at Creation.  This can and does often hamper ones "voice" if it should violate their opinion.

Again at Amarillo this former spring, I had different judges on several poems.  One was a nonchristian judging a christian poem chapbook.  Wow!  I recieved a scathing critique informing me I needed to understand what I was writing about, ridiculing many of my statements and thoughts.

In another contest, a christian judge took great issue with my choice of punctuation in leaving out letters and using an apostrophe to show the ommision.  The place and character of the poem fit the "slang" of the poem, but what was worse, she missed the entire meaning of the poem as she elaborated on the many sins I had committed.

For myself, I try to use my punctuation when needed only to convey the thought correctly.  If I can get by without it and feel the reader can also.  I do not use it.

[Leah]

Yes, as has been said, DEFINITELY be consistent within the poem.

This does not necessarily mean consistent between poems.  It depends on what you're doing.  The key to remember is that punctuation has an affect.  Make sure it's the one you want.  In short, there's no hard and fast rule for every piece.

Lack of punctuation will lead to reading words smashed together a bit.  If you're dealing with a subject where this helps the tone and mood, good.  Do it.  If it will only make things confusing and you don't want confusion, don't do it.  (Sometimes it will lead to opening up double meanings that help bolster your message - good!  Other times it might actually obscure the message or lead to double meanings that contradict what you're trying to say; in those cases, don't do it.)

[jfrost]

Hi Leah,

All good points. Thanks for your input.

Blessings,
Judith